Topic: The Legend Of Zelda: Oracle Of Hours (April Fools' 2008 Project) - Brainstorming Topic

[marioman]

Triple post in the name of not being able to edit messages!



Burning Flame is already used as an Essence of Time.  I should've checked before I posted.  For the record, here are the other essences:



Essences of Time:



1. Eternal Spirit

2. Ancient Wood

3. Echoing Howl

4. Burning Flame

5. Sacred Soil

6. Bereft Peak

7. Rolling Sea

8. Falling Star



Essences of Nature:



1. Fertile Soil

2. Gift of Time

3. Bright Sun

4. Soothing Rain

5. Nurturing Warmth

6. Blowing Wind

7. Seed of Life

8. Changing Seasons



For the other Essence of Light, how about Fading Sunset?

[RT 55J]

Your "plot" is better than mine, marioman. We might as well use it.



Given the general lack of activity in this thread, I assume nobady opposes my Ice Dungeon idea. I'm thinking of making an OoT style bottle a prerequist for it. The shovel is practically redundant with the mole claws, so we could remove it to make room for the bottle.



As for your items, JonLueng, the only one I don't like is the [teleporting key thingy]. However, I can't really think of any good replacements given the locale (although a whip would be funny).



Also, if we don't get this project done on time we could just say "It's alpha."

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[JonLeung]

What would the bottle do for the Ice Dungeon?  Would it be like in the N64 games where you can get hot water to melt ice?  I guess it'd have to be where the ice isn't by the sunlight.



True, activity could be more here.  I make a daily effort to make a new random map thumbnail for the front page, but sometimes that takes up all of my free time on a weekday, so I may revise my daily routine and try to do a bit on this project each day instead.  Then we'll get somewhere.  I still think we can get this done in time; it's the initial hurdles of working things out and we're almost there.



I'm kinda disappointed that I haven't heard back from Grizzly, J.J. Maxx, and KingKuros, though.

[marioman]

Another little observation - notice the pattern in the following data:



Prototype Name - Gameplay Type



Seed of Wisdom - Puzzle-based gameplay

Seed of Power - Action-based gameplay

Seed of Courage - gameplay



I would think that the maps should at least slightly reflect some gameplay style.  I can't really think of a type of game where you would need courage, but I am sure that we could/should come up with something courage-related.  (Maybe strategy or side-quests?)



Just a thought.

[JonLeung]

I wouldn't put too much effort into thinking up the details of side-quests - we're making maps, not building an actual game.  However, a couple small dungeonesque areas (both other games have them, I believe) shouldn't be too hard to make while we're on a roll (if we have time, that is - right now I'm concerned with the main dungeons) and the overworld could easily have a few NPCs in towns or scattered about the world that imply possible side-quests if Link were to talk with them.  The overworld could (and should) also have several caves, the type where Link would expect to find Pieces Of Heart or Rupees like in any other Zelda game, and those usually don't require being mapped.



marioman, do you think you can make the graphics for the essences you suggest?  We will likely use them.  They shouldn't be too difficult to make (see the screenshots of the inventories of the other two games for the correct size and colour limitations), and this way you can easily say that you contributed something to every dungeon, too!

[RT 55J]

I wouldn't worry about side-quests or mini-dungeons. Maybe after we get a couple dungeons finished, but not now.



Also, I think I'll create a general dungeon topic to help get the ball rolling.



Prototype Name - Gameplay Type



Seed of Wisdom - Puzzle-based gameplay

Seed of Power - Action-based gameplay

Seed of Courage - gameplay



Actizzle of Puzzion-based gameplay imo.

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[RT 55J]

Note: All of this is subject to change.



The Maku Tree is wilting because it is trapped in darkness. The Essences of Light must be gathered to revitalize it. Naturally, they're trapped in some neatly organized dungeons.



Dungeon items:

X. Bottle

1. Roc's Feather

X. [time manipulator]

2. [seed shooter-type thing]

3. Power Bracelet

4. Mole Mitts

5. Spinner

6. [teleporting key thingy] (second screen, auto-equip)

-allows Link to use teleporting tiles

7. Mirror Shield

8. Leever Drill (upgrade to Mole Mitts)



I doubt anybody would like the [teleporting key thingy]. Any alternatives?



Dungeons:



1. Ice Cavern

-requires: bottle

-found: Roc's Feather

-The sun could melt the ice and stuff during the day.



2. Flower Gardens

-requires: Roc's Feather and [time manipulator] to switch to daytime (flower petals need to be jumped on to reach the entrance, dungeon is originally in a nighttime area)

-found: [seed shooter-type thing]

-a forest-like dungeon; the time of day affects the plants

-day time = giant flowers are open / night time = giant flowers are closed

-plant enemies like Deku Babas and Deku Scrubs act differently depending on day/night



3. Beach Cave

-requires: [seed-shooter-type thing] and daytime (perhaps something needs to be shot to open the path, and tides are low in the day)

-found: Power Bracelet

-a water dungeon; the time of day affects the tide

-night time = high tide / day time = low tide (that's not how it works in real life but just go with it)

-water level puzzles like those found in various Zelda games



4. Hourglass Palace

-requires: Power Bracelet (to lift something blocking the way)

-found: Mole Mitts

-a desert dungeon; the floors are each laid out somewhat circular-like, with the top and bottom floors being larger than those nearer to the center floor, just like an hourglass

-the floors will switch from day to night: top-to-bottom will become bottom-to-top (stairs will change accordingly) and provide new puzzle elements (pits lead to different areas, shifting sand floors will reverse direction, etc.)



5. Clock Tower

-requires: Mole Mitts (to dig through something blocking the way like sand or dirt, perhaps)

-found: Spinner

-a mechanical dungeon

-a Spinner item, like that found in Twilight Princess (if you didn't know, it serves as a hover-top, a high-speed wall-wheel thing, and also as a gear for operating mechanical devices) would be the item here, which would give full control to the dungeon's clockwork and be used for mechanical puzzles in future dungeons



6. Vampire's Crypt

-requires: Spinner (the crypt could be sealed with a mechanical door that requires a Spinner to turn its gears)

-found: [teleporting key thingy]

-a "dark" dungeon; the time of day affects the amount of light, but mostly night-themed

-nocturnal enemies (werewolves, bats, vampires), including the boss, who will fight differently depending on if it's day or night



7. Temple of Light

-requires: [teleporting key thingy] (no door, no entry except via a teleporter)

-found: Mirror Shield

-a "light" dungeon; the time of day affects the amount of light, but mostly day-themed

-sunlight-based puzzles, the Mirror Shield is found here and required for some of the puzzles

-probably whatever puzzle elements are in the Boktai games



8. Excavation Site

-requires: Mirror Shield (a light puzzle opens the ruins within)

-found: Leever Drill

-Buried ruins of an ancient civilization. Rumor has it that an ultimate power is in there, so the bad-guy naturally wants it.

-Use your stealth powers to sneak around the workers

-Rumor has it that it's infested with snakes. Poor Indiana Jones...

-Leever Drill is required for drilling through stone to solve this dungeon



9. Hero's Cave

-For heroes only



10. Final Dungeon

-Has the final boss



Rough Guidelines:

-No more than 4 colors per 8x8 tile

-No more than 16 colors per screen (excluding sprites)

-Rooms are 15 blocks wide and 11 blocks tall

-For you own sanity, please don't have any floors bigger than 8x8 rooms



Design tips:

-Design the dungeon around a shape.

-Don't be afraid to copy puzzles from other games

-Plan your dungeon on paper.



I think the individual dungeons should have there own threads.



Any objections?

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[JonLeung]

I'm not so sure we need another topic for this.  I would much rather edit the first post of my topic when the plan is all fleshed out because once we have a definite plan the mappers can work at their own pace and we all know what we want to do with our dungeons.



Though to be fair, I do appreciate your enthusiasm and effort to push this through.

[JonLeung]

Aren't the trees different in Ages and Seasons?  Shouldn't we have a new tree?

[marioman]

Be prepared for me to cover a lot of ground in one post.



The side-quests idea was just to give an example.  I knew that they wouldn't be easy to map, but is was an idea.  Maybe strategy elements would be more appropriate.  Or, better yet, maybe there should be lots of geographical challenges/hazards that need to be overcome.  That would be very visible in a map.



Yes, the Maku Trees are different in the games.



I would like to help with the graphics, but I have no spriting skills whatsoever (or basic art skills for that matter).  Furthermore, I definitely would not have the time to do so even if I had the skills.



I will be glad to contribute ideas, but I am afraid that that is about all I will be able to do.  I know that you need help with maps/graphics, but I have very little skills to offer other than helping with the planning.

[JonLeung]

Okay, I really think we should rethink the Ice Dungeon for something more simpler.  Much simpler.



The first dungeon shouldn't have a prerequisite of a tool item.  Perhaps it could have something plot-dependent and a one-time use thing like a key (we have room for several on the second inventory screen, like how the other two games do).  The bottle in particular opens up too many item possibilities that it can hold (water, Faeries, potions, etc.) which whoever makes the overworld would rather not have to deal with.



The time mechanic can't be used here since the time manipulator should come AFTER the first dungeon.



Ice presents challenges that shouldn't be seen in a first dungeon...cracked ice that breaks and smooth ice that is slippery I wouldn't like to see so early.



And it still feels like a seasonal thing and there's no necessity for an elemental spectrum in a Zelda game.



I am not against the idea simply because it isn't mine, and I have nothing against whoever came up with it...I just think it could be A LOT simpler.



We could have the Blah-blah Ruins or the Shrine of Yaddayadda.  Nothing complex, just a run-of-the-mill Zelda dungeon is fine.



Granted, it's all in the hands of whoever makes the first stage.  Perhaps they could pull off a slightly-frosty stage well.  Whatever.  My next point is that the details to be worked out soon ought to be in the hands of the dungeon-makers; it's going to be hard if we over-define ourselves into a corner.  Dungeon-makers need some room to breathe!



I appreciate the flow of ideas but we need something soon.  I myself have been dallying and putting things off but I will start tomorrow morning with my Clock Tower.  As we start building things we will know what needs more thought.  Otherwise this will become stale.



It's past 11:00 PM at night, and I've had a tiring day.  I hope I'm not coming off as rude.  And I'm probably making a distinction between the idea-makers and the dungeon-makers that might be off-putting.  No, we certainly need both.  Maybe I'm just weary of all the brainstorming, and my mind's ready to switch gears and do some dungeon construction tomorrow.  (And gears may in fact be involved.)

[JonLeung]

As I said, I called dibs on the Clock Tower.



I just wanted to show you how I started.  I took a room from Revned's Oracle Of Ages: Ancient Tomb B2F map, then reworked it, arranged the rooms, shaved the corners and changed the palette, and now I have the basic template for two or three of what I imagine would be a three-to-four-floor dungeon.



When moving tiles, I used Revned's Slicer/Splicer program to very easily isolate my errors.  I suppose you could use the same program to take this template for my Clock Tower and replace the individual tiles with other ones for a totally different looking dungeon template without more effort than necessary.



Also, this should be helpful for anyone (else?) making a dungeon after the Clock Tower, and perhaps the overworld:



It's the thing in the floor that the Spinner would operate.  Use it to rotate or activate other objects (like mirrors or statues or doors, perhaps).  The palette can be changed to suit the dungeon, but right now its colours allow it to fit well in this Clock Tower where the Spinner is introduced.



And these are the Spinner rails:









The red and blue parts would be transparent, and the rail would usually be laid over a chasm or other obstacle that Link would not be able to cross over without first obtaining the Spinner from the Clock Tower.  To add some challenge like in Twilight Princess, there would be places where Link has to jump from one side to another to continue, since the Spinner doesn't stop moving forward once Link gets on a rail with it.



Example track, with a jumpable gap:

[RT 55J]

From: JonLeung

The first dungeon shouldn't have a prerequisite of a tool item.



In OoA you get the Seed Satchel and a fancy key before the first dungeon.



I appreciate the flow of ideas but we need something soon.



I have school and the end of the semester is approaching.



Anyways, I call dibs on Level 1.

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Dot? Dot. Dot!

[JonLeung]

The Seed Satchel is in both (or I guess all three) of the games.  I suppose you could consider it a prerequisite...I must've turned a blind eye to the non-dungeon items.  >_<



I'm glad that you've decided to step up and do a dungeon.    I was concerned that if we were churning out dungeon ideas without many mappers here that we'd scare away potential new mappers by seemingly telling them too much of what specifically to do.  I believe a lot of the best dungeon creation would come once one is working on it.  So being a mapper instead of just a brainstormer shows that you're willing to make your vision come true instead of expecting someone else to do it for you.



Of course, I'm a fine one to talk.  >_<



I invited three or four other semi-regular and regular mappers here...the fact that I haven't even gotten a response scares me.  Any of you guys lurking and not saying anything?

[JonLeung]

The Clock Tower is coming along pretty well.



There's a brief outside portion, to that's why there's an entrance to the south which is really where the stairs/ladder would be.



Looks like I'll probably put the compass, map, and Spinner on the first and second floor.

LAST UPDATED: Jan. 30 (See post 107 for further updates.)



I'm doing a little every day to keep me on track.  Once this snowballs I should be able to get more done quickly.