Topic: Tropicon's map projects

[Trop]

*snerk* seriously?  When I did DKC2 I had two stacks of codes to control the camera angle and bg animations alone.  Then I still had to carefully manipulate character position, status, and collisions.  Mapping nice flat RPG's that don't fight back is just fine, but try getting shots of all the little off screen areas in most platformers without spontaneously dying.  Take my most recent stuff with Kirby Super Star: look at the red and blue cave walls in Dyna Blade 3 that are normally always off screen and tell me how I did that.

[KeyBlade999]

Well, sor-ry if I felt like I should enjoy both playing and mapping the game then. >_>

[JonLeung]

I think what is really being said is that you shouldn't have to feel like you are limited to what is normally visible in-game during normal gameplay.  For example, take a look at my Death Mountain (East) map from The Legend Of Zelda: A Link To The Past.  I would have a square map with a chunk taken out of it if I was only capturing it with no additional tools or methods.

I certainly don't think it's wrong to enjoy actually playing a game while mapping it (after all, that's what they're for), but for completion's sake it's not wrong to take extra steps.  Using "cheat codes" may be wrong if you were playing against people or for setting records, but if it's to ensure a map is complete or to do it more efficiently, what's the harm?

KeyBlade999, it's great to enjoy what you do, and for doing it "legitimately", as you say, but within the context of mapping, Tropicon's "cheating" and disassembly approach isn't so horrible, is it?

[KeyBlade999]

It's not that I disagree with the use of cheat codes; I've several times used them myself (freezing the animations on the world map in FFV, for instance, when I did it for GameFAQs). But it's more than he complained about having to do a bunch of work and then looked down on me for not doing the same. It's not like I haven't had my own troubles, sure, but there's usually an alternative way to do things that isn't a complete headache. I would rather have fun with the game and mapping it as opposed to shifting through chunks of code and experimenting. I mean, hell, I could always try to play Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold on an emulator, alter the code to get a top-down camera view, and take a bunch of screenshots like that, but many people are happy enough with my hand-drawn maps for the game, so why go through such needless trouble for a similar end result?

Granted, I look at maps more functionally than most people around here seem to (I recall a comment elsewhere about perfectionism and being pixel-perfect) - if it works, it works. Doesn't matter if it's hand-drawn or not; sure, it may be more pleasing to look at when it results from a ton of screenshots, but that's not necessarily what the user comes for, is it?

[Trop]

Your half right Jon, there are areas that just aren't accessible without codes.  My own Zelda 3 maps are like that.  Just try to get the Lost woods in shade or fog without cheating.  But what I also meant was no mapper in the world is so spectacular that they can effortlessly juggle playing the game and mapping it at the same time.

Also "chunks of code" mapping is in fact better.  All these would have been impossible without code mapping:
https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/N64/index.htm#LegendOfZeldaOcarinaOfTime
https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/index.htm#DemonsCrest
https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/index.htm#SuperMetroid
https://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/SuperNES/index.htm#SuperCastlevaniaIV

I also think most people would agree my non 3D maps for a 3D game, like Aidyn Chronicles, are garbage next to Peardians 3D maps of a 3D game, like Ocarina of Time, even though  I made then over 3D models.

[TerraEsperZ]

I'm really hoping VGMaps never devolves into an elitist community where only one "correct" type of map is allowed. True, the forums have historically been mostly about mappers trying to be as screen-accurate as possible, but that doesn't mean that other types of maps shouldn't be accepted or encouraged.

I do think that if someone makes screenshot maps that are only adequate (missing backgrounds, no relationship between areas, extraneous player sprites all over, etc), those maps should be replaced if another mapper makes better maps all around. For one, they represent the game more accurately; and second, I think all the additional efforts are worth bringing attention to. Now hopefully, it should never come down to a competition to see between two map sets to see which is the most perfect and complete, but I think you can definitely tell between an average and an in-depth mapping work. I just don't want to see potential mappers turned away from the community just because they don't measure up to some arbitrary standards of skills and/or efforts. Everyone should be welcome.

Going back to the initial argument i.e. mapping while having fun playing VS mapping as a full-time job, as obsessed as I can be about accuracy, I can understand the appeal of the former. Sometimes I'll be mapping a number of games for the better part of a year before suddenly stopping everything because after months on end of trying to overcome various obstacles, I realize I'm not having fun anymore. I need games to just be (mostly) mindless fun from time to time or else I'll start hating them.

[Trop]

If I had the mindset Terra I'd never get anything done.  Sure games are fun to play but sometimes while mapping the show you their teeth.  Hell, any 3D or mode7 mapping turns into "play for 15 seconds work for 15 minutes, repeat".  Having played plenty of flash games and tons of hacks I get the feeling a lot of aspiring game designers also got started thinking the play was more important then the work, and then burnt out.  In fact I was just looking at a thread at Metroid Construction where that exact thing happened.  A newbe hacker was talking about all the hard work he had done over three weeks and one of the vets pointed that the average time spent on a hack was three years.  And even though I've been doing this for more then a decade it still applies to me too.  The next KirbySS map is going to be the great cave offensive and it's already like pulling teeth.  It's going to take me weeks to complete.  In fact for anyone who thinks it's so easy here: 1182-D405.  That's the only code I'm using.  No immortality for kirby, no special anything.  Map it with me.  There are plenty of other areas that I won't get to for a while.

[TerraEsperZ]

If I had the mindset Terra I'd never get anything done.  Sure games are fun to play but sometimes while mapping the show you their teeth.  Hell, any 3D or mode7 mapping turns into "play for 15 seconds work for 15 minutes, repeat".  Having played plenty of flash games and tons of hacks I get the feeling a lot of aspiring game designers also got started thinking the play was more important then the work, and then burnt out.  In fact I was just looking at a thread at Metroid Construction where that exact thing happened.  A newbie hacker was talking about all the hard work he had done over three weeks and one of the vets pointed that the average time spent on a hack was three years.

I'm not trying to argue with you here. I was just offering a different opinion because this thread was turning a bit confrontational and I don't want VGMaps to get a reputation as an elitist site.

Also, by mindset, are you referring to the fact of not taking mapping seriously enough? I agree that creative projects need serious work to make it to the end but I don't think everyone has it in them to always succeed. It's easy to see someone else's finished work like a hack, a song or a map and, thinking that it's relatively easy to do, want to do the same only to quickly find themselves in over their head. There's a reason so few projects end up being finished, and it's not just that people aren't trying enough; some people just *can't* try enough beyond a point.

Despite what I said and what you might think based on it, I love mapping games. But I also know when to walk away (sometimes for years) when it becomes a real chore. I've gotten sick and depressed in the past after mapping for close to a year at a snail's pace and after a point, putting it aside wasn't so much a choice as a survival mechanism. You could have *paid* me to continue and I wouldn't have. That's how sick I was by that point. And I'll typically need a long period or rest (from that particular game, not all mapping) before I can come back to such a game. And when I do, years later, I'll typically finish it and do so much faster because I've gotten better in the mean time, and also because being sick of something is like being really sleepy; you can keep working but you'll get slower and slower and most of what you'll do will get of lower and lower quality.

Like I said, it's how I see things. If you can push forward beyond the point of feeling sick and still produce good work, then all the better for you. Just don't expect everyone to have your endurance.

And even though I've been doing this for more then a decade it still applies to me too.  The next KirbySS map is going to be the great cave offensive and it's already like pulling teeth.  It's going to take me weeks to complete.  In fact for anyone who thinks it's so easy here: 1182-D405.  That's the only code I'm using.  No immortality for kirby, no special anything.  Map it with me.  There are plenty of other areas that I won't get to for a while.

You don't have to be so defensive you know. Anyone who's made quality maps knows how hard it can be and how long it can take.

[GHS]

.

You're a mapper, if the game is hard you cheat.  You're not there to play you're there to take it apart.

I do use a cheat. I needed a walk-through so I can pass the puzzles to get to a new area and to the next scenario.

[JonLeung]

Despite what I said and what you might think based on it, I love mapping games. But I also know when to walk away (sometimes for years) when it becomes a real chore. I've gotten sick and depressed in the past after mapping for close to a year at a snail's pace and after a point, putting it aside wasn't so much a choice as a survival mechanism. You could have *paid* me to continue and I wouldn't have. That's how sick I was by that point. And I'll typically need a long period or rest (from that particular game, not all mapping) before I can come back to such a game. And when I do, years later, I'll typically finish it and do so much faster because I've gotten better in the mean time, and also because being sick of something is like being really sleepy; you can keep working but you'll get slower and slower and most of what you'll do will get of lower and lower quality.

Let's not get sick and depressed here, please.  I would hate for this site to be responsible for the detriment of anyone's well-being.

Yes, mapping is a lot of work however you look at it.  And more so for those who want to get every detail right, or go above and beyond with whatever else they can do to present them however they looks best to them.  But that should all be fun and because you really want to do it.  Don't let the mental stress wear away at your mind, body and soul.  This is a web site that hosts maps for people who want to share and to see them.  No one's paying you for them, and the world isn't going to end if maps aren't done a certain way or by a certain time.  We'd all like to see and create certain maps, but I would hope you have a balance between mapping (which should be a hobby at most) and the rest of your life.

I know that sounds hypocritical (given ways I've been spending my time, especially recently but also overall) or preachily cliché, but seriously, while I thank you for sharing, Terra, I certainly would prefer not hear about sickness and depression brought about by all this.  I mean, yeah, talking out issues is a really good thing, but I mean I'd rather that sickness and depression didn't happen in the first place because it is absolutely unnecessary.

[TerraEsperZ]

I should really point out that I didn't mean "sick and depressed" in the clinical sense, and I simply used those words to illustrate the intensity of how I felt. I didn't mean to suggest I was actually sick/depressed and in need of help, and I'm sorry if I came off as making light of such a situation.

I just think mapping should be fun. If your idea of fun is playing casually and taking screenshots as you go, then good. If you prefer to fight a game all the way barehanded because that's what motivates you, then great! Hard work isn't a problem in itself as long as there's still some fun throughout. When it becomes a chore though is when you should take a break.

[Trop]

Sorry, sorry.

Here's a walkthrough but it's for Sega CD so it may not work:
http://alexandria.rpgclassics.com/Sega_CD/popfulmail/popfulmail_1.txt

There are some videos at GameFAQs that claim get through the cave area:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/575678-popful-mail/58988993

[GHS]

almost finished with dark half. just need to cleanup the maps. should be uploaded by this month soon.

[Trop]

Great, can't wait to see them.

[SAVIO2av]

good article...Just a nice topic







-------------------------------
coque samsung galaxy s6 edge etui samsung galaxy s6 edge