Topic: Suikoden 1 and 2 (PS1)

[Paco]

I reaaallllly like Suikoden Series. ^^ and thus i have a few suggestions to make the maps even better!

1. Can you also map Level 2-4 of Toran Castle? You only mapped Level 1 and 5. also add the exact number of Recruits on each Level if possible.  ^^

2. Can you add Boss Sprite on Maps. You also left out some Sprites like the Soldier on Soniere and Kwaba.

3. Can you also add the recruitable Chara with a glowing border or something?

4. You can also add more Color variation to make look the maps refiner. See Attackment as an example. You can of course do it differently.

Sorry if i demand too much of you, but i strike for Perfectionist if possible. I cant wait to see your Suikoden 2 Maps.

[mechaskrom]

There are possible spoilers in this reply so those that haven't already played this great game... beware.

1. How many levels does Toran Castle have? I only thought it had 4 plus the foggy/infested one that I call level 0. And because you never see (or do you?) the exterior of level 1 (right after you killed the zombie dragon) I used level 0's exterior for level 1. They should be the same anyway except the fog of course. So my maps are like this:
Level 0 = Toran Castle (foggy).png
Level 1 = Toran Castle (min recruits).png
Level 2 = no map
Level 3 = no map
Level 4 = Toran Castle (max recruits).png

I thought about mapping all levels, but didn't for a few reasons:
-They are all pretty similar, just a few more rooms and small changes. Map of level 1 and 4 should give you a good picture of how the castle changes from its smallest size to its biggest.
-How do you decide which characters should be recruited for each level? There are many possible combinations and many changes to Toran Castle depends on what recruits you have. Having maps with fewest and all recruits were the only straightforward choices IMO.

Exact number of recruits for each level feels like something for a guide/walkthrough and not a map, but you and I probably have different opinions on what should be in a map.


2. and 3. Besides the font this is probably the question I spent most time on. What should I include on the maps?
I thought about keeping all boss and character sprites, but concluded in the end that the result was less than perfect and caused many issues. A few examples:
-Tai Ho and Yam Koo are recruited in Kaku. Later in the game Gaspar is recruited in the same spot. The cafe's basement is going to get crowded.
-Kwaba has soldiers in the beginning and rebels in the same spot near the end. Which should I map?
-Having Tengaar in her bride-outfit and Neclord playing on his organ while Pesmerga watches.... that'll look pretty silly.
Bad examples perhaps, but trust me that deciding what and how to include some sprites will be hard. And I pondered over this for a long time trying to make it work.

I'm OCD when it comes to doing things. If I can't make it look perfect (or close) it'll bother me a lot. Including all sprites will clutter up the maps and I prefer things to look "clean" so for suikoden's maps I decided to follow this rule as far as possible:
-Only include sprites that stays in that position throughout (or near the end of) the game.
That's why some of the townspeople sprites are included in the maps. There are some exceptions of course, e.g.
-Zombie dragon's sprite is hard to edit out so it's the only boss sprite on the maps.
-Gregminster changes a lot between start and end of the game.
-Toran Castle. Not including all characters here would look strange.


Also consider that I think that maps should be maps and only help players navigate the game and of course show how the game looks. A written guide/walkthrough will probably be much more helpful in finding all suikoden's recruits than any map will ever be for example. Including/adding extra information on maps can sometimes be nice, but should be carefully considered, especially if it will clutter up the map to much. All IMHO.


4. We've already discussed my choice of font and in the end it really comes down to different taste and opinion. What colors you use feels like a minor issue anyway. Thank you for your suggestion, but I like the current colors better.... IMHO of course.


PS
I like the glowing border. I'll keep that "trick" in mind when making maps, could be useful. Thank you.

[mechaskrom]

I looked into how to map all levels of Toran Castle and here are my thoughts and findings.

I could only find 4 levels plus the version of Toran Castle with fog and monsters, but I don't count that as a level and therefore i refer to it as level 0. I checked the number of recruits for each level and it seems to be like this:
Level 1 = 9-29 recruits
Level 2 = 30-44 recruits
Level 3 = 45-89 recruits
Level 4 = 90-108 recruits
Does anyone know if this is correct?

I guess I could have these numbers in the map's name if you want, e.g. "Toran Castle (Lv3, 45-89 recruits)"

A quick check revealed that changes between lv1, lv2 and lv3 are apparent, but not by much. Lv3 and lv4 are almost identical. The flag on the exterior is the biggest change.


I thought about how to decide which characters to recruit for each level and the simplest and most sensible way is to recruit every character you can when following the game's story until you reached enough recruits. But then I thought about another issue. Should I map each level with max or min recruits? Take lv2 for example. Map with 30 or 44 recruits? Right now I'm leaning at max recruits for each level.


What do you guys think? Is there any point in mapping all 4 levels of Toran Castle?
I think they are to similar and lv1 and lv4 maps are enough, but I don't mind mapping all if you wan't me to.

[TerraEsperZ]

I haven't played the game, but I think a mapper should try to be as comprehensive as possible. Areas should never be left out unless they are too difficult or impossible to map or are direct repeat of existing areas on the same map. Even in the latter case, I would still prefer for those areas to be included or at the very least, to have text explaining that the missing areas are identical to those already depicted. Leaving them without explanation might give the impression that these unmapped areas simply don't exist.

[mechaskrom]

The new Toran Castle maps are finished. You can get them here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?l5j1grsjzml8gdu

I also discovered that you only need 25 recruits for level 2 i.e.
Level 1 = 9-24 recruits
Level 2 = 25-44 recruits

The castle exterior shots are now displayed in its corresponding map instead of all in lv4. That means that Toran Castle (foggy) had a small update so it's also included in the archive. To my knowledge you never see the exterior of lv1 so it has a blank image instead.

So what do you think? Is this better than the existing maps for Toran Castle?