Topic: Suikoden 1 and 2 (PS1)

[mechaskrom]

Hello everyone!

My first post, but I visit vgmaps frequently. I love old games and looking at/creating maps for them. 

I decided that it finally was time to make some contributions to vgmaps so I'm working on maps for Suikoden 1 and 2 (PS1).
Suikoden 1 is almost finished and I haven't started on 2 yet.

[magicbay]

i loved these two games as well as the downloadable ports on the playstation 3 and psp.

i can't wait to see what the maps look like for these two great games.

[snesmaster]

I look forward to seeing your maps!

[mechaskrom]

I'm glad to see that more than I'm interested in seeing maps for these wonderful games. I was pretty surprised that there weren't already maps for them.

Maps for suikoden 1 are pretty much finished now and I would like to get your opinion on my "style". Any suggestions, criticism and so on, please let me know. Here is the map for great forest in suikoden:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?md91hmhd13964bx

One question, should I upload maps with a transparent background or fill it with a solid color (e.g. white, grey or black)? The map of great forest have a transparent background for example which mediafire sets to black when viewed (at least for me in firefox).

[snesmaster]

The maps look great!  Have you tried using the letters from the game with a black stroke instead of the green ones?  That may look better if they are still readable.

As for the transparent question, I personally fill the background in on all my maps as a solid black.

[TerraEsperZ]

I second Snesmaster's suggestion. If you can get it all, using a game's font to write text on a map makes it look that much better, though depending on the graphics of the map itself, you might have to alter the font a bit to have it stand out better (like adding an outline or changing the colors a bit).

As for the transparent background, I'd say it's up to you though I personally don't like having them on my maps. I prefer to fill the background with a color that offers a good amount of contrast, which usually ends up being a dark shade of grey, blue, purple or whatever else looks good. I know I'm vague, but I really suck when it comes to color arrangements.

[mechaskrom]

The font used in the maps bothered me a lot. I did try to use the game's font first but it's very "thin" and doesn't stand out much so therefore I made one inspired from other games (NES & SNES mostly), but I agree that it would be desirable to use suikoden's font instead.

I put some different fonts in the great forest map:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?32ax293c32caaw4
A,a = Suikoden font 2x size (16*24 pixels tile size)
B,b = Suikoden font (8*12)
C,c = Suikoden colored font 2x size (16*24)
D,d = Custom colored font (16*16)
So which one of these do you prefer ? None of them?
Personally I would choose the colored 2x suikoden font after my own. I don't like the other two, thin white font doesn't stand out for me at least and the original size is just to small.

And regarding the background I think I'll use a light grey color. Many areas in Suikoden have a dark, almost black, "border" around them and it will look bad IMO with a black background. Dwarves' vault is a great example of this:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ksgmatayttm3a8k
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ovg7y7u17gyt1be

[TerraEsperZ]

Wow, I didn't realize the original font was so small compared to the rest of the map (i.e. characters, doors, etc). It looks good but the letters are kinda lost and don't really call attention to themselves. The enlarged font on the other hand looks badly pixelated, so unless you edit them to smooth them a bit (either by editing them by hand or using some fancy anti-aliasing effect), I'd stick with the game font in its original size. I'd personally avoid the colored fonts or at least, I'd use a color that's easier on the eyes.

Personally, I'd use the A font but to call attention to them, I'd paste them over a colored label that would both stand out from the game's graphics and make the letters more noticeable. I suggest taking a look at the maps for Final Fantasy I & II: Dawn of Souls (GBA) on the site to see what I mean. Or else you can simply use the font as is but change its color and add a colorful outline to make a greater contrast. I can't quite give you a good example of that last example since I suck at drawing but maybe someone else can.

[snesmaster]

I like Font B the best (but yes it is probably too small and hard to see, so I would go with A, and I agree maybe putting a solid color box behind it to make it stand out.

As for the background issue.  I had the exact same problem when mapping Chrono Trigger for the SNES.  Most of the in game background color outside of the map area were different shades of black that were brighter then black.  I just made it all black and found it looked much better that way.

Here is an example I made from your map.
http://www.nesmaps.com/share/Sample1BlackBG.png

[mechaskrom]

So it seems that you like Suikoden's font unlike me.
I think it's to thin and hard to read when you zoom out the maps, but I tried making it bolder and it actually looks pretty good.
So I think this is what I will go with. Hopefully it's not upsetting anyone. People have different taste and opinions and it's hard to please everyone.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?x79ure7myi4c74w

And it seems that you also doesn't like colored fonts unlike me.
The graphics in Suikoden is overall pretty bright and a few places are covered in fog making a white font with black outline a bit hard to see, particularly when zoomed out. Even Suikoden uses colored fonts (see attached image) which I got the colors from so I'm not breaking away from its style. A colored label/box could fix this, but even though they are nice and really make things stand out I think they cover up to much of the graphics and should be used only if necessary.

And I'll just leave the background with a solid light grey. I've designed the maps so you just have to do one color fill to change the whole background. So if you don't like grey it's easy to change.

[magicbay]

i think the maps look absolutely great no matter what ya do afterwards.    it's almost like your actually inside the game with a psp in hand trying to figure out the directions to the local item shop or inn.   

just don't let others tell ya that they look crappy cuz they don't look crappy.

[mechaskrom]

Thank you for the kind words magicbay.

I don't think that snesmaster and TerraEsperZ thought my maps looked crappy. They just suggested ways to improve them which was exactly what I was asking for. I'm grateful for their replies because it made me look into (again) using the game's font and I managed to come up with a way to make it look pretty good IMHO. Better than my original font at least. So thank you snesmaster and TerraEsperZ.

I've contributed the maps to vgmaps and hopefully they will be accepted and published eventually.

I'll start working on suikoden 2 now so see you all again in about 4 months or so. 

[TerraEsperZ]

just don't let others tell ya that they look crappy cuz they don't look crappy.

Don't worry, I'd never call someone else's work crappy, especially given how unsatisfied I often am with my own stuff.

And anyway, I think Mechaskrom's choice works well enough with the little shadows under the enlarged font, and I'm happy to disagree regarding the colours. It's a personal choice, and I'll be the first to admit I have little to no artistic skills, especially where colours are concerned. We're getting great looking maps in any case

[dark_lord_zagato@yahoo.co]

This is amazingly awesome. I've wanted to see a Suikoden world map for years now. These are all top quality as far as i'm concerned.

[snesmaster]

I think what makes a map look "crappy" is when the screen shots are not lined up correctly in an obvious way, or when animated tiles in a map are all mismatched.  As far as the maps here, they look great.  It is just a matter of opinion as to what font looks best, what color works for the BG.  These are just the small details.

I look forward to checking out all the maps!