Topic: Request Listings

[JonLeung]

Oooh, how mercenary of you.

I suppose if you and your clients figure out an agreeable price, if certain maps are worth that much to someone, it might cut down on the begging.  Throwing money around, like it or not, does seem to cause things to happen, in almost all situations.

The only thing is that anyone paying for commissions (or anything) should understand that whatever deal or transaction happens here is between you and the other person; if a deal goes bad for any reason, VGMaps.com is not to be held responsible for any of that.

That being said, carry on.

EDIT: Now make sure you think this through.  You will have to be prepared for some interesting scenarios.  For example, what happens if someone wants to pay you for a huge job - and it's not particularly exciting for you, and maybe even technically challenging.  And you start work on it, and it takes a long time.  What if, before you are able to finish, someone else independently makes all of the maps and submits them, and they turn out to be comparable, equal, or, dare I say it, better (in the client's eyes) than the maps you are commissioned to do.  If the client finds these other person's maps satisfactory, they won't want to pay you.  (They also aren't obligated to pay the other person who fully mapped it, especially since maps have (as far as I know) always been submitted here with no expectation of payment.)  What then?  Your time has already been spent making some or most of the maps.  And if they aren't fundamentally different to the ones already made, I wouldn't see any point to put them up.  Would you be okay with such a scenario?

Even without that, there would have to be enough understanding between all parties involved.  Does the requester pay first?  What if the mapper is unable to finish or takes much longer than expected?  Or does the requester pay at the end?  What if they're jerks and decide not to?  If it was merely an online purchase of an item that merely needs to be sent out, then paying first makes sense.  But we're talking about something that can potentially take weeks, months, or even years.  Unless you are able to make this your full-time job?

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but if you are serious about offering your mapping services through commission, I hope there aren't new problems that arise from this...

[Trop]

Oh I'll cut any deals at my DA page, not here.

As for making stuff somebody else already has, or is working on, If that's what people want I'll even remake something I've already done.  It doesn't have to be posted here or anywhere, It can be for their eyes only.  And I'm not worried about speed, I'm the fastest mapper around. I was doing those DKC maps one a day at first then two a day near the end.  And if a deal goes bad I'll shoulder the loss, it's fine.

I'll just do an assessment, and if they agree to the price I'll give them a general time line with opt outs for me.  If they agree I'll make the map and post it in thumbnail until they pay.

[LTIan]

Maybe I said it wrong.

I should have said:

Please do not close the Map Request Boards. It is an important part of this forum.

But if you were to offer Commissions, I would gladly pay with dA's Point Currency System.

[Trop]

I don't even know what those point things are.  No I'll be asking for money.  I'll posting commission notifications at DA today.  If you want something come request it.  Difficulty assessments are free.

[LTIan]

Do I have to explain everything?: http://www.deviantart.com/account/points/

That link will help you know everything about Points.

[FlyingArmor]

I cannot speak for Trop, but if I were in his position, Points would be the last means of exchange I would ever consider, the primary reason being that you cannot convert Points back into currency. The only things Points seem to be good for is for buying stuff from the deviantART store and for getting memberships.

[Trop]

Heh, yeah that's what I thought points were.  I'd never accept those.  DA already takes way too much out of prints.  Sell $100 in prints at DA and make $10?  No thanks, Red Bubble offers much better ratios.

[LTIan]

THEN I REFUSE TO PAY/COMMISSION FOR MAPS TO RIPPED COMPLETELY! 

If it takes 'til the end of time, I'll simply wait until someone rips the maps from games that I have requested.

Trop, you can just COMMISSION yourself!

The same goes for anyone else who vouches for him!

[Revned]

I'm not sure how this thread escalated from discussing the merits of requests to pressuring LTIan to pay for maps, but I really wish it hadn't. Can't we just make maps for the fun of it?

[Trop]

Well that is not at all what I expected.  But it certainly has hints of that one lady that came in here demanding Mario maps.  You can't complain about something you're getting for free, even though I see a lot of people do.  What will be will be I guess.

[JonLeung]

LTIan, I don't know what price Tropicon quoted you for the Road Runner: Death Valley Rally maps - assuming you had discussed it at any length - but I'm not sure that it warrants such a negative response.

Now I'm not necessarily vouching for Tropicon here as I don't even know what his price is for that.  And not knowing how difficult the game is to map I can't comment on that specifically, but I would imagine it's probably not simply an otherwise-impossibility that can only be overcome by being paid for.

Revned, you're right, maps can be and have been made for the fun of it.  Some maps may never get mapped though, and if commissions adds the motivation for a mapper to figure out how, and if the requestor is willing to pay, then I don't think that's so wrong.

Because remember, it's commission, not ransom.  If someone can find a way to map it and does so, and submits it with no expectation of money - as every map so far has been, as far as I know, then great!

If Tropicon is extra-motivated by money, and a requestor is willing to pay that amount, I see no problem with that.  Artists do that all the time.  And we can debate whether or not stitching screenshots together is the same as paying for the individual and unique talents of a traditional artist, but the point is that no one can really stop any transaction between two people that are happy with that arrangement.

Tropicon is accepting commissioned requests on his deviantArt page, as he said, and so if the thought of money changing hands just for maps tarnishes VGMaps.com, then I won't comment on it more than necessary moving forward.

---

However, we still have the (apparent) problem of people making requests - or maybe more accurately, making requests with too much expectation, or too little understanding/appreciation of the work involved.  What now?  Any suggestions?

I'm still reluctant to close it down totally.  It doesn't feel like it's enough of a spammish annoyance, it's not like requests show up every day.

How about this...would a stickied topic telling people of common-sense guidelines and not-so-common-sense explanations of the challenges involved help at all, do you think?  Like a "Things to consider before you request..." sort of topic?  Or is that weaksauce?  Would be better than not having anything at all, though, right?

[Revned]

If Tropicon wants to try to collect commissions, then so be it. But this thread (plus the other) went from zero to "has LTIan paid up yet?" in no time at all. Begging for money is as bad, or worse, than begging for maps.

For what it's worth, I think people pretty much ignore stickied threads before posting, as a rule. I'd lean towards closing the board, but I'd also be completely fine with just leaving things as they are. Just don't push things the other direction

[Trop]

I never made LTIan any kind of quote, he never even asked, there was no discussion other then what you've seen here.  I never meant to pressure anybody into anything.  All I'm saying is if people want maps, and you don't want to hear about how they want maps, then they can commission them like any art, and it never has to bother you.

I guess if you truly want a request spam free environment you could rig the boards for mappers only.  That would probably stop all requesters.

[LTIan]

If Tropicon wants to try to collect commissions, then so be it. But this thread (plus the other) went from zero to "has LTIan paid up yet?" in no time at all. Begging for money is as bad, or worse, than begging for maps.

For what it's worth, I think people pretty much ignore stickied threads before posting, as a rule. I'd lean towards closing the board, but I'd also be completely fine with just leaving things as they are. Just don't push things the other direction

Let me make this clear: "I do not commission people with money!"

Believe me, I can't pay Trop with money even if I wanted to. But unfortunately, my dad has CONFISCATED my bank card, so I cannot make any sort of money-paid commission!

Tropicon is accepting commissioned requests on his deviantArt page, as he said, and so if the thought of money changing hands just for maps tarnishes VGMaps.com, then I won't comment on it more than necessary moving forward.

Until I can pay off my Student Loan in its entirety, I cannot regain control of my Dollar Bank Account. Therefore, I cannot commission people.

LTIan, I don't know what price Tropicon quoted you for the Road Runner: Death Valley Rally maps - assuming you had discussed it at any length - but I'm not sure that it warrants such a negative response.

Now I'm not necessarily vouching for Tropicon here as I don't even know what his price is for that.  And not knowing how difficult the game is to map I can't comment on that specifically, but I would imagine it's probably not simply an otherwise-impossibility that can only be overcome by being paid for.

Revned, you're right, maps can be and have been made for the fun of it.  Some maps may never get mapped though, and if commissions adds the motivation for a mapper to figure out how, and if the requestor is willing to pay, then I don't think that's so wrong.

Because remember, it's commission, not ransom.  If someone can find a way to map it and does so, and submits it with no expectation of money - as every map so far has been, as far as I know, then great!

If Tropicon is extra-motivated by money, and a requester is willing to pay that amount, I see no problem with that.  Artists do that all the time.  And we can debate whether or not stitching screenshots together is the same as paying for the individual and unique talents of a traditional artist, but the point is that no one can really stop any transaction between two people that are happy with that arrangement.

---

However, we still have the (apparent) problem of people making requests - or maybe more accurately, making requests with too much expectation, or too little understanding/appreciation of the work involved.  What now?  Any suggestions?

I'm still reluctant to close it down totally.  It doesn't feel like it's enough of a spammish annoyance, it's not like requests show up every day.

How about this...would a stickied topic telling people of common-sense guidelines and not-so-common-sense explanations of the challenges involved help at all, do you think?  Like a "Things to consider before you request..." sort of topic?  Or is that weaksauce?  Would be better than not having anything at all, though, right?

I do not make ransoms. Believe me, I am not a law-breaking villain.

I am still not going to pay Trop any sort of money for any maps to ripped. My requests can stay on that list for as long as it takes.

A sticky topic would be a good idea. Though I would have it called: "The Rules and Regulations of Requesting", that would help.

[JonLeung]

Well, guess I still have to say something...

LTIan, I think you've misinterpreted my verbage.  When I said "it's commission, not ransom", I meant it like someone could be paying Tropicon for the service of mapping a game (which would be commission), not that Tropicon is the only one holding these maps and that he's making us pay to release them (which would be ransom).  The latter certainly seems more like a bad thing.  I'm making the point that I really don't think Tropicon (or anyone offering paid services) is doing that.  And I'm certainly not implying that you, LTIan, or anyone else on the paying end of this transaction is doing any "ransoming" or anything wrong, so I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm calling you some kind of "law-breaking villain"...certainly not my intention.

Sorry to hear about your money issues, LTIan, though as I've learned from work (actual career work) and working with being sure that contracted truckers are properly getting paid, I found it's best not to question how anyone handles their money, but we weren't looking for you to share details about your life so don't feel pressured to do so.  You can if you want to, I suppose, but don't feel like you are expected to.  You don't have to justify your position that you're against commissions.  I may have thought your response (in bold red letters) when Tropicon said he wanted actual money instead of deviantArt points was surprisingly negative but I didn't mean to imply that you're wrong for thinking so.  Sorry about that.  I still would've thought you and Tropicon would have at least talked about a specific number, but if you're against or unable to spend any amount, even if it was like a dollar, then I guess that's where you're coming from.  And you're probably not the only one.

I still don't see the harm if Tropicon wants to do commissions and if people are willing to pay him.  He'll make and manage those deals himself elsewhere.  VGMaps.com will continue to have maps submitted without expectation of payment, and free to view for all, so don't you worry.

And one day, someone somewhere may be able to map Death Valley Rally...